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Where I live The road out of the village is 30 mph and approx 100 yds, you then join a B road that's 60mph, but there are no signs around the junction to say so. My Volvo always flags this as a continuation of the 30 and keeps nagging me, the speed warning doesn't get corrected for about half a mile. That's the problem. Under the proposals I can pull out, the car will limit me to 30 mph, a car can come round the corner behind me doing a legal 60 mph.
 

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Where I live The road out of the village is 30 mph and approx 100 yds, you then join a B road that's 60mph, but there are no signs around the junction to say so. My Volvo always flags this as a continuation of the 30 and keeps nagging me, the speed warning doesn't get corrected for about half a mile. That's the problem. Under the proposals I can pull out, the car will limit me to 30 mph, a car can come round the corner behind me doing a legal 60 mph.
Firstly there's nothing to stop a car pulling out onto a 60mph road and driving at 30mph without limiters as things stand. It's happened to me more than once and I've had to brake to avoid running into the back of them.
If the junction you are emerging from is near a bend the responsibility rests, as it does with both parties now, to be aware of potential hazards.
What system does the Volvo use? Camera, GPS or both?
 

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Firstly there's nothing to stop a car pulling out onto a 60mph road and driving at 30mph without limiters as things stand. It's happened to me more than once and I've had to brake to avoid running into the back of them.
If the junction you are emerging from is near a bend the responsibility rests, as it does with both parties now, to be aware of potential hazards.
What system does the Volvo use? Camera, GPS or both?
I think it is more a problem of accountability. We have grown to accept and tolerate human behaviour - to err is human, if an accident happens as a result it is usually treated as “just an accident” and doesn’t warrant much further discussion, it certainly doesn’t make the news.

But if the mistake is down to an electronic or computer error that is a different matter. In our current culture, we cannot accept even one single accident caused by the electronics or software getting something wrong. We see this all the time, every time there is an issue with driverless cars it gets reported in the national news, inquiries are started, and lawyers draw battle lines pending a possible law suit.

The reality is that there are proportionally fewer accidents caused by electronic/computer systems than by human error but they are disproportionately held accountable.

I guess one reason is that with an electronic/computer system you can also look at it and say “if it had been coded like this or if I it used these different sensors, then the incident wouldn’t have happened” - which you can then translate into making the manufacturer responsible for inadequate design.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

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Then if you are caught speeding you have a reasonable defence if the signs were overgrown Where I live there I'd a website for reporting obscured signs.
If you live an badly run council area then yes speed signs may be obscured and the car will remain set to the last speed limit sign it passed (assuming there was no GPS fitted).
This is on Dual Carriageways and Motorways.

As for the Council Run areas, could not say but I'll take your word for it. ;)
 

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This is on Dual Carriageways and Motorways.

As for the Council Run areas, could not say but I'll take your word for it. ;)
There is also legal precedent that it is okay to speed to avoid danger or an accident. This was tested in a case where a driver was charged with speeding and took it to court claiming that they only sped to avoid a dangerous tailgater - the judge ruled in favour of the driver.

The challenge with any automated system is that the moment that one prevents a driver from avoiding harm or an accident there is a strong possibility that the manufacturer (or possibly the enforcing government) will be held accountable.

I’m not judging whether speed limiting is a good or bad thing, I can see both pros and cons, just saying that these sort of things are very difficult to bring into practice because of all the ramifications of accountability.

This is why a Tesla autonomous system that results in a broken finger nail makes the national news but the thousands of serious accidents caused by human error don’t even raise an eyebrow.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

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There is also legal precedent that it is okay to speed to avoid danger or an accident. This was tested in a case where a driver was charged with speeding and took it to court claiming that they only sped to avoid a dangerous tailgater - the judge ruled in favour of the driver.

The challenge with any automated system is that the moment that one prevents a driver from avoiding harm or an accident there is a strong possibility that the manufacturer (or possibly the enforcing government) will be held accountable.

I’m not judging whether speed limiting is a good or bad thing, I can see both pros and cons, just saying that these sort of things are very difficult to bring into practice because of all the ramifications of accountability.

This is why a Tesla autonomous system that results in a broken finger nail makes the national news but the thousands of serious accidents caused by human error don’t even raise an eyebrow.

Cheers,

Nigel
The 'special reasons' defence' Special Reasons Argument - Patterson Law is fairly well known and if you re caught speeding you can certainly attempt to argue it in court.
Manufacturers will clearly face liability in the event of an incident and it will affect civil and criminal cases, however attribing liability is something enforcement agencies and courts have been doing for a very long time. Its going to be up to investigators and insurers to establish what happened and where accountability lies. What the public may find strange is that corporations are now held accountable rather than individuals but that's how it works in workplace accidents.
 

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I think it is more a problem of accountability. We have grown to accept and tolerate human behaviour - to err is human, if an accident happens as a result it is usually treated as “just an accident” and doesn’t warrant much further discussion, it certainly doesn’t make the news.

But if the mistake is down to an electronic or computer error that is a different matter. In our current culture, we cannot accept even one single accident caused by the electronics or software getting something wrong. We see this all the time, every time there is an issue with driverless cars it gets reported in the national news, inquiries are started, and lawyers draw battle lines pending a possible law suit.

The reality is that there are proportionally fewer accidents caused by electronic/computer systems than by human error but they are disproportionately held accountable.

I guess one reason is that with an electronic/computer system you can also look at it and say “if it had been coded like this or if I it used these different sensors, then the incident wouldn’t have happened” - which you can then translate into making the manufacturer responsible for inadequate design.

Cheers,

Nigel
I would agree that accidents don't get the wide spread coverage that those involving 'autonomous' vehicles do. I don't see autonomous only incidents having the same ramifications as self driven cars hitting autonomous vehicles (and belive me they will form the bulk of incidents) up time will tell.

A significant issue is that a lot of the public don't have a clue about how the legal system works and even less of a clue about autonomous vehicles. Some autonomous vehicles will still require some level of human intervention by design, others will be completely self driving. It's very hard to anticipate but I imagine there will be a requirement in the early days for the driver to have overall responsibility until public and government get confidence in the system.
 

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This is on Dual Carriageways and Motorways.

As for the Council Run areas, could not say but I'll take your word for it. ;)
Not quite sure what you're taking my word for here but there's definitely a site for reporting problems with signs if that's what you are doubtful about.
 

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I think it is more a problem of accountability. We have grown to accept and tolerate human behaviour - to err is human, if an accident happens as a result it is usually treated as “just an accident” and doesn’t warrant much further discussion, it certainly doesn’t make the news.

But if the mistake is down to an electronic or computer error that is a different matter. In our current culture, we cannot accept even one single accident caused by the electronics or software getting something wrong. We see this all the time, every time there is an issue with driverless cars it gets reported in the national news, inquiries are started, and lawyers draw battle lines pending a possible law suit.

The reality is that there are proportionally fewer accidents caused by electronic/computer systems than by human error but they are disproportionately held accountable.

I guess one reason is that with an electronic/computer system you can also look at it and say “if it had been coded like this or if I it used these different sensors, then the incident wouldn’t have happened” - which you can then translate into making the manufacturer responsible for inadequate design.

Cheers,

Nigel
This is a long read but worthwhile one. https://www.jipitec.eu/issues/jipitec-9-3-2018/4806
It explains pretty well where accountability could lie and suggestions for insurance/enforcement. It's written from a top level autonomous vehicle (no driver input).
 

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Incompetence is the cause of the majority of accidents.
I'd not go as far as incompetence, a good deal of them are due to errors of judgement rather than the driver being incompetent, although it often looks like it seeing some drivers on the road.
 

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I don't think anybody can say something definitely will or never will come to be. There are just too many variables at this stage.

On the speed limiter thing; if this is the same one passed by the EU a few years back, the proposal was that the system could be turned off by the driver. I remember wondering then, what the point of it would be? Anybody that would tend to not drive above the limit anyway would leave it on and those that would tend to drive above the limit would switch it off. In other words, things would be exactly the same?

On autonomous driving; what happens when the vehicle gets into a situation from which it cannot extract itself? There are hundreds of possibilities for this.
 

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I don't think anybody can say something definitely will or never will come to be. There are just too many variables at this stage.

On the speed limiter thing; if this is the same one passed by the EU a few years back, the proposal was that the system could be turned off by the driver. I remember wondering then, what the point of it would be? Anybody that would tend to not drive above the limit anyway would leave it on and those that would tend to drive above the limit would switch it off. In other words, things would be exactly the same?

On autonomous driving; what happens when the vehicle gets into a situation from which it cannot extract itself? There are hundreds of possibilities for this.
It crashes.
 

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Not quite sure what you're taking my word for here but there's definitely a site for reporting problems with signs if that's what you are doubtful about.
I meant the council run areas you mentioned.
 

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What about them? That they are responsible for making them visible? They certainly are although I can imagine some don't do it.
Your comment ,

"If you live an badly run council area then yes speed signs may be obscured and the car will remain set to the last speed limit sign it passed (assuming there was no GPS fitted). "

I do not live in a council run area so would not know what you referenced in your above comment.
 

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Your comment ,

"If you live an badly run council area then yes speed signs may be obscured and the car will remain set to the last speed limit sign it passed (assuming there was no GPS fitted). "

I do not live in a council run area so would not know what you referenced in your above comment.
You don't have a local council? Odd but there you go, there will still be a highway authority. My point was that if your local council or highway authority is badly run they may indeed leave signs obscured even if they are reported.
 

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You don't have a local council? Odd but there you go, there will still be a highway authority. My point was that if your local council or highway authority is badly run they may indeed leave signs obscured even if they are reported.
No problem, what i meant to say was I do not live in a badly run council area.
 

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The data bases are run by private companies. The local Authority and Highways England are responsible for ensuring signs are kept legible - if the owner of the vegetation covering the signs won't cut it, they do and bill the owner. If you drive around a bend signposted at 30mph and crash, it's your fault as it currently is - you have to drive appropriately for the conditions - a speed limit is just that, not a target. Lost revenue can be reclaimed by increasing taxes. Speed limits will continue to be set as they currently are.

I'll have to look into the last point and see if its legislation but none of the points you made will prevent speed limiters coming in.
@Jon1972 have you read & are responding to the points raised?
 
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